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Transcript of Interview with Lee Minoff 12/15/97 |
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| Dr. Bob: Good morning. Lee: Good morning. Is this Bob Hieronimus? Dr. Bob: Yes it is. Lee: This is Lee Minoff. Dr. Bob: Yes, Lee. I'm sorry we're a little bit late here. My apologies on that. Lee: It's okay, no problem. Dr. Bob: Before we get into the main discussion my preliminary question would be this; I purchased your original script, would you please tell me what I purchased in regards to the very first ideas given to Al Brodax? Lee: I don't know what ideas were given to Al Brodax. Dr. Bob: I meant the very first ideas that you gave him. Lee: You mean how it happened? Dr. Bob: No, I'll get to that in just a second. Was this- Lee: He hired me to do the script. He hired me to write a movie for the Beatles. At that time I had done a scenario for him on Mandrake the Magician, which he apparently liked a lot. I was a young playwright and with the play coming on Broadway and another one option to go on Broadway, and my agent was Audrey Wood, which was Tennessee Williams' agent. And so I was at the time a hot writer and so he approached Audrey and she suggested me to do the Mandrake script and he liked that and he told me he produced that cartoon of the Beatles on Saturday morning - King Features, you know about that. Dr. Bob: Yes. Lee: And that he had tried to come up with an animated film for the Beatles and they were turning down script after script or writer after writer; I don't remember, for two years, and so he hired me to come up with an idea for the film and I was sent tapes of the Sergeant Pepper Album before it became an album, in great secrecy. Dr. Bob: That must have been quite a joy, Lee. Lee: It was a terrific joy. The Yellow Submarine was on the tape and I thought of writing it as a musical. Dr. Bob: Was it your idea to use Yellow Submarine as the title for the film? Lee: I think so. It was so long ago. Dr. Bob: This is the problem, 30 years is a long time. Lee: After hearing the tapes, I had come off working for Stanley Kubrik, who was doing 2001 A Space Odyssey, and I thought of doing this as an odyssey after hearing all of the songs based on Yellow Submarine, based on that song. So it wasn't my idea to come up with the name of the song, but it was my idea to come up with this would be the film, or possibly be the film. Dr. Bob: The circumstances under which you were hired, you knew that - Did Al Brodax tell you why he had to have another writer, especially yourself being younger? Lee: He told me he thought that I would get along with the Beatles. Dr. Bob: Right. Lee: And he liked what I did. And as I said, I had a play coming on Broadway, a seller agent. He also mentioned that Joseph Heller, I think was a friend of his, was interested in writing the script but he chose to make a deal with me. Dr. Bob: He needed you badly because his relationship with the Beatles wasn't, because of the cartoon features, wasn't the best. He had some problems there. Lee: I would think so. If I were the Beatles I would have some problems with Al Brodax. Dr. Bob: He had some problems with them and as a matter of fact it was put to him point blank that he had to have someone who was younger and someone they could communicate with because they felt like he was just too old. Lee: Yes. Dr. Bob: He was up front about this. He did mention that, that that's the major reason why other writers had to be brought in. Lee: I don't know what writers were suggested before or whether indeed he had any scripts that were turned down, but he mentioned to me that for two years he had been trying to make this and they turned everything down. Dr. Bob: So,- you were in fact then introduced after they - Did the Beatles meet you first before - Lee: No no no no, this all happened in New York and then Brodax made a deal with me and told me very little about what he wanted. I just told him about the idea for a musical about Yellow Submarine and we made a deal on that. The contract of which you have, right? Dr. Bob: Right. Lee: He took me to London to meet the Beatles and to get some idea of what they wanted. Dr. Bob: Was he there during your meeting with them? Lee: Yes. The meeting with them only consisted of Paul McCartney and some friends. At the time John Lennon was making How I Won the War out of London. Ringo wasn't involved and George was learning the sitar in India. So it was really Paul McCartney, a little kid. He was about 21, 23 oldest, surrounded by a lot of freaky looking people in St. John's Wood house. We had some brief conversations which Brodax sort of led. The only thing that seemed to come out of the meeting was Paul McCartney talked about a monster. He wanted a monster in it. Monsters are good. Then we went back to the hotel and I planned to go back to New York and come up with a story line. Brodax said, "No, you've got to write it right now." I was pretty much-- Dr. Bob: While there? Lee: While I was there. And I was very concerned about that because I was having some marital problems and wanted to get back to New York quickly, but he insisted I stay in the hotel room and write the story over night, which you have. Dr. Bob: You had to write that story over night? Lee: Over night in the hotel room. Dr. Bob: Good Lord. Lee: The next day we went again to McCartney and apparently McCartney approved the story and Brodax was able to go to UA to make a deal. Dr. Bob: Lee, that's extraordinary. Lee: That's what happened. Dr. Bob: Over night? Lee: Over night. Dr. Bob: I don't know how in the hell you did that, Lee. Lee: I don't either. I had no choice. I was totally under the gun and I just panicked and I just sat down and wrote something. It wasn't very long, but it was enough I guess to get him to make a deal. Whether the Beatles were tired or whether their manager Brian was tired of turning Brodax down or it was the right moment when I came along, I don't know. A lot of these things are timing. But that enabled him to go right over to United Artists and make the deal. Dr. Bob: I see. Lee: Then I came back and wrote the first draft screen play. My main job it, seemed to me would be to reform Brodax's sensibility. He was still thinking in terms of Walt Disney. Not the new Walt Disney, but Donald Duck and so forth. And I knew that the art was the whole feel of the film. The attempt should be to make it as good and as quality and as hip as the Beatles music, which was sensational. Walt Disney certainly was not the way to go. I tried to (word???) with him. I had almost nothing - we didn't really talk about ideas or anything. I was a little shocked when I saw his-- Dr. Bob: All you had was the monster idea from Paul. Lee: That was Paul, right. And I was shocked but not, I guess, that shocked having been in the movie business to see his name on the credits when the movie came out as a writer. Dr. Bob: Al Brodax? Lee: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Al seems to feel that he put together with Erich Segal about 90% of the script. That's basically how he puts it. Lee: I don't know what happened after I wrote the second draft. Movies are usually re-written by other writers or you re-write other writers, but there were also many - I mean, the film seemed to be more drawn than written. There were many artists working on it. And I'm sure they contributed a lot. I don't know whose responsible for turning it into whatever it became, but I'm sure it was many many many people. Dr. Bob: It was, Lee. It was like you couldn't say exactly, concerning certain ideas, where they came from because they came at the spur of the moment when the artist was working and there was a time there when there was no script at all and these guys were in the studio working and these guys were running out of all kinds of ideas in time. But that's for later on. How many times was it necessary for you to re-write? Did you ever get to put in the Davey Jones Locker in the script? Lee: No, that's not mine. Certainly there are so many things that are derivative from what I did and I what I wanted. Sometimes it's hard to trace them out. Dr. Bob: I can trace some of them out near the end of our conversation or a little later on, because-- Lee: Okay. Nowhere Man, for example, was based on the director of my play Jonathan Miller. The director and doctor who I was very unhappy with. And who I felt was a great intellectualizer whose narcissism bled all over my play and really helped to ruin it when it finally got to Broadway. I really based the Nowhere Man on Miller who could do everything. He was a writer, a doctor, a director, blah blah blah. But I felt he was ultimately full of shit. Dr. Bob: Jonathan Miller. Lee: Yes. I wouldn't mind that getting out. (laughter) That the Nowhere Man was based on Jonathan Miller. Dr. Bob: I'm glad to hear that. I mean, not from his perspective because - it's good to get to some of the fundamental roots of this act of creation. That's how I look at it. A group of co-creators over an extended period of time rather than-- Lee: That's what it was. That's what it was, but the first guy has the toughest job. Because you know in the first draft, for example, I had to have the guy followed around -- Brodax like the idea of Old Fred, which is my character, being followed around by a seal -- that's what I mean by the Disney sensibility. I had the monster in the first draft because that's what McCartney wanted. I had to put them in and they apparently left it and they left it in even the second draft. To come in as the 5th or 6th writer and you have stuff to work with and stuff to take out and stuff to use and change, that's the way to come in. When there's nothing there, that's the hard part and you know it's never going to end up... Dr. Bob: I'm an artist and when you come up against a blank canvas or a blank wall anything is possible then. Lee: My feeling was basically that film was really drawn rather than written. And it was always my - I saw as my task to somehow bring that movie up to the quality of the Beatles and the Beatles' music. Dr. Bob: Well, I'm certain that had something to do with the sale, the film being saleable. When you came over you turned things around for Al Brodax because-- Lee: Totally- Dr. Bob: He was in real hot water. Lee: Really? I had no idea of that. I didn't know whether the timing was right after turning down writers for two years they sort of weakened or a lot of that is luck of timing too. I do know that it was that story line and my meeting with McCartney and his approving the story line that Brodax immediately went over to London to United Artists and apparently a deal was made. Brodax told me that. Dr. Bob: The script that I have, is that the final one that you handed in? Lee: No, I think that's the first draft. The second draft I've been looking for and it's somewhere around. Again, with many changes. After the second draft it stopped there. That was the initial first draft. Dr. Bob: At what time did you learn that another writer was going to be hired or needed to complete this? Lee: I guess I learned it when I heard about Brodax seemed to be very unhappy with the drafts, so I assumed other writers would be coming in but I had no idea who. I was then totally divorced from the project. Dr. Bob: Was there ever a formal time when he came to you and said -- Lee: There was a formal time when he came to me asking me if I would be interested in foregoing my credits because so many changes had been made. I said something like, "You must be joking." Dr. Bob: That's the reason why you have an agent, to make sure that doesnít happen. Lee: Absolutely, and you need to. Dr. Bob: Audrey Wood is your agent? Lee: She was. She is now dead. Dr. Bob: She passed on. Lee: My lawyer really worked things out with him to preclude that very sort of thing happening. Dr. Bob: I know that he tried to make it happen that way because he mentioned the - by the way, what I'm saying to you is not any hidden stuff. This is what he verbally said to me. It's out there now. It's going to be out in the open, so it's not like I'm speaking behind anybody's back whatsoever. Nothing to do with that, it's just that he has been very reticent to answer in depth certain types of questions. I know that he's also considering writing a book on this. But my emphasis is I want to really not do a P.R. thing here. I want to really understand how in the hell this came about. There's lots of ways you can do this. You can do it the King Features way or somebody else's way, in which you tell what other people want to hear. Lee: Sure he is. Everybody is putting a spin on it. Dr. Bob: I'm not interested in that because I care too much about-- Lee: Brodax had no input really on the story of the first script. Dr. Bob: Are you aware of the Max Wilk book published by-- Lee: Yeah. It's like nothing to me. It's a little cartoon book, right? Dr. Bob: Yeah. It is the first full color paperback illustrated in existence. But in regards to the film, it is not the same story as the film. Lee: I never read it. Dr. Bob: Max had a real problem in the same sense that they didn't have a so-called "final script" until 6 weeks before the film premiered. Lee: And I doubt that was a final script- Dr. Bob: It wasn't. I have one as well. Bob Balser, I've been talking with Bob and everyone else - John Coates and Jack Stokes - all the guys that worked on this aspect of it. And basically they said they didn't have anything patched together. They had a bunch of story boards. And your intuition was right on and -- Lee: The artists did it. Dr. Bob: The artists basically took what was written and at will and at liberty decided which would go in and which would go out. Lee: Sounds right to me. Dr. Bob: That's basically how it worked. Lee: The film was written in the animated studio I would think, finally. Dr. Bob: Yes. Max Wilk is so hot and angry about this that he will not discuss the Yellow Submarine film publicly. He wanted me to take a chapter of his and put it in my book and I told him I wasn't interested in doing P.R., I was interested in getting to the bottom of this. And I know that must sound strange to a lot of people but my Ph.D. is in the area of history and especially the Great Seal of the United States, the pyramid, the eye in the triangle, where it came from and you can imagine with the amount of dis and misinformation about that pyramid and the eye in the triangle and secret societies that you can go on for years and not really get the straight stuff. But there was a Gold Key comic - by the way, the Max Wilk book right now in mint condition costs 50 to 75 dollars. Lee: Really? Dr. Bob: Max Wilk thinks it goes for $150. It's not true. I've never seen an edition go for that. Even the hardback. Lee: What's he angry about? Dr. Bob: He is very upset because they wanted to bring the book out again in 1993. King Features would not approve it. Al Brodax opposed it. I think he opposed it behind Max Wilk's back, so Max Wilk did not know that that's how it was being handled. Paul McCartney was against it, at least Apple was against it and it didn't go into another edition. The first edition sold about a million copies, but again, it didn't follow the film. I was going to be teaching a course at the Maryland Institute College of Art on the Yellow Submarine in 1974, and when I started digging around to try to find out historical information, his book was basically all I could come up with. Lee: Did Brodax tell you it was all his idea to come up with the Yellow Submarine, to call the Sub Yellow Submarine? Dr. Bob: He said that the idea to name the film The Yellow Submarine - I believe, and I'd have to go back to my notes, he said that you came up with the idea that the film should be named after a Beatles song and he said that it was Ringo Starr who finally came up with the final title. Lee: That's news to me. Dr. Bob: That's how he put it. Lee: He also put his name on the screenplay. Not only did he put his name on the screenplay, but he allowed an ampersand between my name and his name and then between Mendolsohn's name and Segal's name so that it looks as if we wrote as a team. And that only dawned on me after awhile. I would have objected to that strenuously because I never worked with him. He made it look as if 2 teams of writers wrote it. Dr. Bob: I see. Lee: I don't know what the teams were after me, but I was a team of one when I was involved and I never worked with Brodax. So, he's a sneaky guy. Dr. Bob: I'm fond of him. I guess he has a lot of charm. Lee: He's charming. Dr. Bob: And he's very bright and we have the same kind of cultural heroes, Rocky and Bullwinkle and a lot of silly stuff being artists. And Will Rogers my most favorite person, almost, on the planet, who is no longer here of course. And Pogo. We can see eye to eye on those levels. He knows that he had a part of history in animation film Lee: I'm sure he's aggrandizing himself as much as he can. You know what they say about a success has many fathers, and Erich Segal was going around claiming he wrote Yellow Submarine. Just blaring it to the world, so I finally wrote a letter in the New York Times Dr. Bob: It was well written. Lee: Did you see that letter? Dr. B ob: It was well written. Lee: Yeah. Dr. Bob: It was humorous- Lee: I felt powerless because he wrote Love Story, terrible book, but he became rich and famous and he had a platform and I was just a press guy at the time whose marriage was falling apart and I wasn't even a member of the writers guild because I didn't want to spend money for the dues. I would have throught the writers guild challenged the way they put the credits finally, that little fiddle that Al Brodax did, I would have challenged that. I was too depressed to do it. Dr. Bob: I know folks that work in the "business" world know that. They know that after you go through a certain amount, you've about stretched yourself to pieces, you're bound to say hell with this man, I want to get on with my work. I don't want to spend all my life in the past. Lee: I must say when I finally saw the movie I was disappointed. Dr. Bob: We'll get to that in just a second. But how much do you think you contributed to the final film? Lee: It's hard to say, it's hard to say. It was mostly in very indirect ways. I didn't particularly like the dialogue. Every writer thinks his is better. You read the first draft script. I thought the animation was fantastic and I thought the music was fantastic. I missed a lot of the things that I wanted to do that were changed, but I could see their derivation from a lot that I did do. Dr. Bob: There are some derivations that I'm going to bring up in just a second that are definitely there and cannot be ignored. If I were doing a P.R. book, they could have easily ignored,. but they are evidently there and I was looking for them because as I was interviewing everyone else I asked them if they had seen your script and most of them said no. Then I asked them of course, were there any carryings over from that film and most of them said no. Lee: Who is them? Dr. Bob: That would be John Coates and Jack Stokes and the other individuals that never met you. Lee: These were animators? Dr. Bob: These were animators and the guys from TVC Cartoons in London who literally - if Brodax didn't bring them the information, they didn't know about that particular part of the information. Then when I started to understand this is a biased telling because these guys didn't know so they're not going to bring it up so I could ask everyone that question, did you ever hear of this, and they'll say no. One can easily write a story, they never heard of it. Lee: I'm sure Brodax wanted to eliminate me completely. He would like to eliminate me from the face of the earth so he can just credit himself. Dr. Bob: He can't get away with that. Lee: Erich Segal, which would enhance him. Erich Segal was a name and I wasn't. How much does he think what he did is in the final version? Dr. Bob: He thinks a good deal of what he did. But I do not know. I sent him a copy of your script. Needless to say, this is not a good way an historian can do this in which you have to go out and buy the scripts to make sure you get it right, but I felt so strongly, Lee, about trying to determine what the hell was going on, had I known how to locate you, I probably would not have purchased your script. I would have just talked with you about it. Lee: I would have given it to you. Dr. Bob: It could have saved me three grand and I would have really enjoyed that, but that's not the way the cookie crumbled. You gotta' accept what comes. But here are some of my observed similarities that I went through. This is certainly not in any way a complete list, but these are things that caught my eye as important and things I wanted to mention. Did you notice that - of course you had Argentina - you wrote Argentina several times in the script. It did pop into the movie. I don't know whether they were conscious of that or not. Both problems with monsters were solved through reason and discussion and one was bad manners to pick teeth and the other was the birth of the other monster didn't know people were in the submarines when she was using them as crayons etc., therefore no killing. That's exactly the same pattern in the Yellow Submarine film. The original script has the monster actually vanquished with love as in the film. The original script suggests that real life famous people be used in person or as sound affects. As a matter of fact, you put a great deal of emphasis upon the mixture of media. Which indeed happened. Of course, that may have evolved anyway, but the key thing is it was in black & white written down somewhere that, hey, let's do this. You had on page 133 Mel Brooks or Lee: The voice of the monsters. Dr. Bob: However, in the Yellow Submarine film, the people were not famous, but characters who worked in and on and around the film, real life characters were put in it. And again, of course, that may have happened coincidentally, but the fact is, is that you were suggesting that this be put in an animated film which was not your normal animated film of 1968 vintage or '67 vintage. Your first treatment has the Beatles riding on a submarine, that's near the end of the first trip, and that parallels the ending of the film and in the land of submarines you have various - this is what I found fascinating - forever, when I would watch the film, I think I've watched the film and I'm not exaggerating Lee, but it's going to sound like I am, but close to 100 times. Lee: You poor guy. Dr. Bob: After awhile the charm kind of wears thin. But in trying to understand, I have one of those kind of weird minds that likes to understand meanings of things and perhaps that comes from Lee: You're a psychologist, right? Dr. Bob: My Ph.D. is in humanistic psychology. Lee: Well, I'm a psychoanalyst. Dr. Bob: Then, I think you can understand why I'm doing what I'm doing when other people think Bob, if you want to write a blockbuster book, make it sensational and da da da da da Lee: Do say, if you mention me, that I am now a psychoanalyst. Dr. Bob: Certainly I'll do that. In the film, in the very beginning, it's not really in the very beginning, but it's in the beginning, you'll see three different colored submarines, a green one, a blue one, and a pinkish-red one. When I first saw that film I thought this is delightful, I wonder when we're going to see these other colored submarines. Well, we never did, but in your script of course, when you had different colors for submarines, some being used as crayons, you have these same exact colors. Lee: Really? Interesting. Dr. Bob: So, therefore I do not know, there's no way to talk to George Dunning, he's passed on, and Al Brodax had one bloody war after another with George Dunning. Lee: Also, he's a liar so you can't believe Brodax. Dr. Bob: According to Coates, and Stokes, and Edelmann, and everyone else basically I talked to, Dunning was a real gem, he was a genius, but he had health problems and then later on during the film he continued on with a drinking problem and that got him in real hot water, needless to say, because you can't work real efficiently when you're working like that. And these guys were under the gun of you finish this damn thing in 11 months or we got your balls kind of thing. That's a hell of a thing to attempt in two years let alone 11 months. These parallels, I know when I mention them in parts of the book, are going to disturb a number of people. Lee: Also I think, and I haven't read the script in 30 years and I haven't seen the film in awhile, but I remember wanting to open it with Ringo alone. And isn't that how the film opened? Dr. Bob: That's right. Lee: I also wanted it opened in black & white. Dr. Bob: That's right, that's another thing. Lee: You know with Eleanor Rigby. I think that's somehow reflected in the film. Dr. Bob: It's definitely reflected in the film. If I had another two years to write this maybe we could Lee: We'd have to do a real exegesis. I could do that if I sat down with that script and with the film and really studied it. I would be better able to tell you what I think some of the derivatives were in the film from my script. It's been so long. Dr. Bob: Do you have a copy of that film? Lee: I have a copy of the film. If you want me to do that what's your deadline on the book? Dr. Bob: My deadline is well past. The key problem has been and this is why everyone is quite upset with me, their feeling is hell Hieronimus, you have interviewed more than you needed to to do a real knock out book and frankly, and I hate this part because you know when you're writing your doctoral thesis you got to hit a point where you got to stop the information from coming in. But then if - you do stop it at the wrong time, you're not accomplishing what you need to do. I wanted to know the truth about how this evolved. Lee: I can tell you certainly the Blue Meanies are not mine. Dr. Bob: We've got a lot of controversy over the Blue Meanies Lee: The Blue Meanies I had nothing to do with. Dr. Bob: Do you know that one of the background artists swears, because they worked closely with Heinz Edelmann, that Heinz Edelmann was suggesting purple meanies and that she talked him out of purple meanies and did blue meanies. Lee: I believe that. Dr. Bob: Well, Heinz Edelmann says that they were originally always supposed to be red for the KGB but when the information was passed on to the background artists they either ran out of red paint or she just changed it. They were originally supposed to be red for the KGB, that's who they were. Lee: Really? That's interesting. Who's idea was that? Dr. Bob: Heinz Edelmann. Lee: It wasn't Erich Segal? Dr. Bob: No. It was Heinz Edelmann. Lee: He's going around saying it's all his. Dr. Bob: He discusses blue meanies from the standpoint of who gave them their final name or something like that. That's why this whole thing is so complicated. Lee: You'll never be able to sort it out. Dr. Bob: No I won't, but- Lee: It's impossible. Dr. Bob: Perhaps not, but I will be able to present several possibilities by which sometime in the future maybe it can be sorted out. Maybe it's not necessary to sort it out. Maybe it's best to leave it in a certain way so that people can really get to see how artists work. Because artists don't work just the ole' left hemisphere as we all well know and it's not A-Z Lee: I would think that the artist should be credited with a great great deal. I thought the animation was terrific. I am sure that so many ideas came from them and probably did more than the writers. Dr. Bob: Well, they did. Lee: The film was drawn rather than written. The final version was drawn rather written, I would say. Dr. Bob: When you look back over it, what did this mean in your life? Did it hit you at a time when it was important in your life or did it come as such -a great challenge? Because in my life, I'll tell you when I've had challenges that were not on this level but other levels, they usually came at a time when everything else in my life was falling apart. And I had to struggle to keep one aspect together Lee: This certainly came at that time with me. What did it mean to my life? I was glad to make the money which was $17,500, which is all I made from the film. But those were the days when Willie Mays only made $100,000, not the millions that people make now. I was very pleased to work on a Beatles project. I said to myself right then, look, this will probably, if I'm remembered at all in my obituary, I'll be remembered for Yellow Submarine. When I felt I did better work than that which I had better control over, nobody knows about, you know, scripts, screenplays, that never got made, which is usual in the business. I was thrilled to be asked to do it. I was very depressed when I saw it. Dr. Bob: What was it that depressed you? Lee: Because I'm a writer, the lines. I was delighted with the art work. Of course I was always delighted with the music. There's nothing better. But lines like "Too Late Too Soon", the name of a book written by that alcoholic woman Dr. Bob: Oh, oh- Lee: "Too Much Too Soon". Which I thought, well, I guess that's one line that Brodax probably threw in because that sounded to me like Brodax. But I wasn't pleased with the writing of it. I thought the lines weren't clever. Dr. Bob: Do you know that Roger McGough had a hand in writing it? Lee: No, who is he? Dr. Bob: Roger McGough is a British poet from Liverpool and he was called in for the first part of the film to give it more so called -- Lee: Authenticity. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and in his contract it was basically said that he could not under circumstances have his name involved in the contract. And then there was some controversy as to whether or not it had to do with whether he was British or an American. There was a lot of very peculiar stuff happening Lee: Everybody wants to play, everybody wants to, you know - but, Brodax has said that he and Segal wrote 90% of it, did you ask that to Segal? Did Brodax write 90% with you? What did he say? Dr. Bob: He is not in agreement. Lee: (laughter) Dr. Bob: No, he's not. He is not in agreement with that. Lee: What did he say? Dr. Bob: I'm trying to recall exactly. That's why I want to be specific. Lee: He said Brodax was full of shit probably. Dr. Bob: No. Erich is very much - he has been living in London for 20 years now, he holds his opinions close to his chest and it's really very difficult to - because I wanted to learn exactly what the hell problem there was at the very top as to why Paul McCartney and the rest of the Beatles said this damn thing ain't getting done because we're not going to work with Brodax. That, to me, was key to everything. When I understood that it -made it very clear that a lot of unfortunate probing had to be done because the Beatles, by and large, at least at that time were not interested in airing their dirty laundry out there. You know, they were furious about the cartoons. They didn't want them have any influence over the film and that's why they didn't want Brodax to come in. Lee: I wonder how Brodax even got a deal with them to co-produce with (word???), given those cartoons which were pretty simple minded. Dr. Bob: This is how he had to do it. He had to find someone who could communicate with them and who they could trust. And that's why you were brought in. You were brought in because you looked like them, according to Al. You had a good repore with them, he said. I thought that perhaps all 4 were there, but you clarified that there was just Sir Paul and other friends out at St. John's Woods. It's the kind of situation in which I think he had no other choice Lee: Then he had to devalue me because I enabled him to make the film. Dr. Bob: Isn't this a tradition? Lee: Sure it's tradition. Dr. Bob: Because if you're reaching out there to say - I mean Al Brodax had a lot of big things under his belt. He finished the Popeyes, the Barney Googles, and all this other kind of stuff. And I don't know where he - he certainly looked on paper like he's a man that can handle anything, except for people. Because people have consciousness and you couldn't treat people like a machine. Lee: I think it's consciences. Dr. Bob: Consciences. (laughter) Lee: He's a very charming wheeler dealer. He's an operator. Dr. Bob: Indeed. Lee: And unscrupulous. And you can quote me on that. Dr. Bob: The crazy thing about this is here we are, we're coming up on the 30th year of this, MGM/UA has absolutely closed their mouths as to what they're -- Lee: By the way, if I can interrupt you, Dr. Bob: Yes sir. Lee: You can't even get this film on tape anymore, what's going on? Why hasn't it been re-released? Dr. Bob: It's been one war after another. It's a thing of control of King Features - I think it is out of their hands now and is in MGM's and UA's hands. They own it, I think, now. And so the problem seems to be and always has been, who gets the credits for what and I think it's been off the shelves for 10 years now. It's only been shown on television infrequently. In Britain it's been shown more frequently than here but Britain -- Lee: Is that going to be resolved? Dr. Bob: Yes. It's going to be resolved this year in 1998, which the movie is coming out again with a segment placed in it that was taken out of the original American segment which was the Hey Bulldog sequence. There was a sequence in which the 4-headed bulldog which you only see briefly in the film in the American version, has a whole 3 minute part Lee: Who wrote that one? Dr. Bob: This was written - actually this is basically one of the artists' work. Lee: I'm sure, I'm sure. Dr. Bob: Jack Stokes. Lee: Yes, I am sure that the artist - most of what came after my script was done by the artists. That was always my feeling. Dr. Bob: I think that because of the- Lee: Because that's why the art was good and I thought the dialogue was terrible, I really did. Dr. Bob: When you read - you'll get a chance to read what Edelmann - Heinz Edelmann is truly hot about this for different reasons. Lee: Everybody is hot about something, huh? Dr. Bob: There's a good reason though. Peter Max- Lee: He claimed it too, right? Dr. Bob: Many Americans think that Peter Max did this. Lee: And he had nothing to do with it. Dr. Bob: He had nothing at all to do with it. Lee: He's another character like Brodax. Dr. Bob: Is he really? Lee: He's a total phony. He was indicted for income tax evasion. He was a total, what shall I say, another unscrupulous entrepreneur who promoted himself with great falsity. Dr. Bob: I didn't know how false until more recently. Lee: He had nothing to do with the movie as far as I know. Dr. Bob: He didn't. No, he had nothing to do with it. Lee: But people think he did. Dr. Bob: He allows that thought to continue. Lee: Exactly. Dr. Bob: That's the problem because on the internet some months ago was a story on Peter Max on art and he was being interviewed by a guy named Robbins and this guy Robbins basically was saying (end of side one, missing some text.).. art. And then later on Peter Max makes a reference to his Beatlesque type Yellow Submarine type art in the article. And then when he was - of course we did try to reach him. He did come to Baltimore. My wife did speak with him. We were going to have an interview and it's been 11 months of silence after that. Of course as you know, just several months ago on Reuters, there it was, Peter Max pled guilty on tax fraud. The final sentence in that particular story was Peter Max the artist of the Yellow Submarine and Bob Dylan's psychedelic poster. We know that he had nothing to do with the Yellow Submarine. He doesn't have a leg to stand on there. But the Bob Dylan poster I've been checking into, it doesn't seem like he had anything to do with that poster if we're talking about the same poster. And that was the poster - and I'm sure you're familiar with it, with the colors in his hair, this black silhouetted face of Bob Dylan with colors blue, red, orange in his hair. That was Milton Glaser or something like that. It had nothing to do with Peter Max. And so now we're tracing down that one. If it's true that he's parading that around - see, I have to find out are they using his press releases or are they making it up? Because it wouldn't be quite fair for me to say Peter Max is going around saying he was the creator of the Yellow Submarine -- Lee: He's certainly allowing it to happen and loving it. Dr. Bob: He's allowing it to happen, yes, yes. It's a very complicated sad situation in which I know Mr. Max is not going to be happy at all with what I've got -- Lee: Your job isn't to make people happy as a historian, is it? Dr. Bob: No, it isn't. But I'm not an unpleasant type of person. Lee: I can tell that. Dr. Bob: I'm not into doing dirty stuff to dirty people to make sure everything looks great and all of that. In the old days, see, while you were doing this in '67 - you started March 31st, June you're first draft was finished - I was at that time Lee: That's pretty quick. (laughter) Dr. Bob: Quick? It's unbelievable. At that same time I was traveling with rock 'n rollers. My job was - and it really wasn't a paying job, hanging out backstage with Elektra Records individuals and we'd discuss esoterica. Their interest in Atlantis and reincarnation and UFOs and the paranormal and meditation, all that stuff, that's basically what I was doing back then. And my interest was trying to find out - and I know this is going to sound corny, but I was just, trying to find out whether the artists who writing those songs with this information were conscious of what they were saying and doing. And of course you already know the answer, they weren't. But I didn't know that then and I was sort of hoping against hope that perhaps maybe we had some superconscious people. But unfortunately hanging backstage made it too clear that not too much intelligence was going on from that standpoint. There was other kinds of intelligence there, but it wasn't that. Lee: Right, right. Dr. Bob: OK, I covered everything I needed to cover. If you do have a chance to look again and have any other observations, would you please contact me? Lee: Okay I will. What's my time frame here? Dr. Bob: I'd say within a month. Lee: I hate looking at scripts and stuff I've written. Dr. Bob: I never can do that. Lee: It always depresses me. Dr. Bob: Isn't it? Isn't it very depressing. Lee: To get back into the world and to feel again the outrage and depression that surrounded that period with Brodax. I'm going to have to dip into it, in other words, to - I'm going to feel those emotions again. But I think it may be worthwhile just to read the script again, see the movie again, and to see what connections I may be able to decipher out. Dr. Bob: I'd appreciate that very much Lee. I really would. Lee: And it would be helpful to you too. Dr. Bob: It sure would. Especially in trying to- Lee: It's very very difficult and so many people, so many hands were in this pie that - I don't know how historians do it. Here you have all the living people. How do historians do it when all the people are dead? Dr. Bob: Some of the key folks like Charlie Jenkins who was a special effects person and everyone points to as the great genius behind most of the special effects scenes is gone to Argentina. (laughter) Yes. I don't know what the hell is going on in Argentina. These guys took it seriously and they haven't been able to find him for four years. At the same time he was doing this film, he was having marital problems. I think most artists when you put everything you've got for one last big shot have to go through that. Because what are you going to choose? You're going to make a living here, you're going to be able to have a human relationship with another human, it's kind of hard to do both of them at the same time.... Dr. Bob: Lee, thank you ever so much for your time. Lee: Thank you. Dr. Bob: I'll send you some propaganda on myself and send you a copy of this tape so you have it for your records. Lee: All right. I would love to see whatever you have to show. Dr. Bob: Thank you. And I'm so glad that you're open to discussing this from the perspective of trying to search for the damn truth. Lee: Well, I want to set the record straight. Certainly as far as I'm concerned. Brodax is not going to do that as far as I'm concerned. Dr. Bob: I think he's got some stuff to protect. Lee: Be careful or he'll put his name on your book. Co-authored by you and Al Brodax. Dr. Bob: That was suggested some time ago. I'm not a good collaborator from that standpoint. I work better alone I think in trying to sort these things out. Lee: You mean he wanted to collaborate with you? Dr. Bob: Not at first, no. But when he saw that I was basically getting interviews with people that I don't think would talk to him anymore - I don't have to say "don't think" -- Lee: He wanted to control the spin. Dr. Bob: Yes. That obviously - it's unfortunate that he's got something to protect. And I'm not on the attack. That's the key thing, I'm not. I'm interested in just saying basically as we've talked today, there were things that you contributed, whereas in the other people who were involved did not know that because they hadn't read the original material and saw its origins. I've been very fortunate. It's cost me plenty to do it, but I've been very fortunate to see that there is validity to that. And that can be challenged by whatever they'd like to say, but it's in black & white, it's there. That's a lot different than saying, "here's how I remember it." Lee: Also, I'll try to look for the second draft of the script. If I find it I'll send it to you. Dr. Bob: Thank you. I'm sure that there are other elements - I only pointed out 6 or 7 things, mainly because I was focused on those things. And I knew that there were other things, but - especially I had forgotten about Ringo being alone in the very beginning, that struck me. There's so many different ways in opening a film and for your suggesting that at the very beginning (words?) over to the film, I think is an interesting parallel. That's how I would like to look at this. Rather than this is right and this is wrong. Unfortunately that's -- Lee: Unfortunately you're involved with people, all of whom want to claim the most they can with the making of Yellow Submarine. That's the problem. Dr. Bob: Yeah, that's it. Lee: It's very difficult to sort out who is exaggerating, who is not, which has legitimacy, who is just trying to aggrandize themselves and I don't envy you that job. Dr. Bob: I don't' either. Lee: It's very tough. Dr. Bob:I'd much rather go back to my writing and painting and reading. Lee: So you're an artist as well? Dr. Bob: Yes. I'll send you some books on the murals that I did. My interest mainly is in symbols, archetypes, things of that nature. The first mural that I did, which, by the way, I began less than a month after the Yellow Submarine film premiered. It was at Johns Hopkins University and it dealt with the history of the planet. That was 30 years ago. I'll send you some propaganda on that. Johns Hopkins at first had a hard time with this piece and now finally they actually use it as an advertisement for their humanities department, which is very unusual. Lee: Very good. Dr. Bob: Since I'm talking about things that corporate America is not happy about. I'll send you some propaganda on that so you can Lee: It's a detective story. It's a job of detection. Dr. Bob: And I don't think we can just cut it off that quick. Lee: Not when you get new evidence like this. Dr. Bob: How do you explain the importance of new evidence to a publisher who's just interested in getting you the friggin' stuff. You know how sensitive they are. Lee: Sure, sure. Dr. Bob: They're like, what the hell, you don't need that for, you've already got a Lee: Let us put the book out and make some money. Dr. Bob: (laughter) Well, I'll be talking with you sir. Lee: Okay Bob, I certainly will. Dr. Bob: Thank you very much. Lee: It's been a pleasure. Dr. Bob: It certainly has been. Lee: Okay. Dr. Bob: Bye bye sir. Lee: Bye bye. End of Tape |
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