Our guest at this time is John Coates, the director of TV Cartoons based in London, England. TVC did the Beatles cartoon series for ABC-TV and in 1967-68 produced the animated movie, "The Yellow Submarine," which is now considered a major landmark in the history of animated films.

Since then, their accomplishments have been just as important. In 1978, TVC produced "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe", which won the 1979 Emmy award. TVC Also won major film awards for their work on "The Snow Man" 1982) "When the Wind Blows" ('86-'87), Granpa ('88-89); and Father Christmas ('91). Recently completed is the "Peter Rabbit and Friends" series - six half hour specials sold world wide and appearing in the U.S. on The Family Channel. After receiving
much critical acclaim it has just been nominated for a Prime time Emmy Award.


Welcome to Baltimore's Best Radio show- 21st Century Radio's Hieronimus & Co.!!! John?

John Coates: Hello. Nice to talk to you.

BH: John, You were the producer of the "Yellow Submarine" movie.

JC: May I interrupt there? Actually I wasn't literally the producer. I was in charge of the production. I was really what in this day and age is called the line producer. There was an Executive Producer, Al Brodax.

BH: Oh yes, Al Brodax.

JC: Who was actually, has the producer credit on the film.

BH: I get it now.

JC: He was very much the man doing all the wheeling and dealing. I was the man running the team that made the film.

BH: Well, we really wanted to talk with the person running the team
that did the film.

JC: In that sense, I was the producer.

BH: Had you worked with or known the Beatles before this production?

JC: Yes, we had because we'd done the ABC series. And we had known for about three years - I won't say that we knew them well, but they came and visited the studios and they were quite interested in what we were doing. They were pretty jolly famous at that time and moving around the world. But we met from time to time.

BH: Where did the, this has always interested me, where did the story line for the "Yellow Submarine" come from? There are so many names listed in the credits, it's difficult to tell.

JC: Well, there was an original outline which came from America. And Al Brodax brought that over to us and that would be early in the summer of '67. And we felt it wasn't it was a bit too cutesy for our taste, and the Beatles never were that. And we had a feeling it needed more nitty gritty and it needed to be made more for the teenage market and less for the young kids. So various people came over and wrote. There was someone who hasn't got a credit, an English writer who wrote most of the sort of good Liverpool dialogue in there. A man called Roger McGough. But since then, he's become quite a famous writer and poet in this country.

BH: Well, I'll be. Was Lee Minoff that writer from ...

JC: Yes, well Lee was the one who wrote the original thing and he came over with it, with Al Brodax. And he stayed writing, and then various other people became involved. And of course, oh... Love Story.....

BH: Well, you know obviously we're trying to reach Mr. Eric Segal.

JC: Yes, of course. And he wrote a very large part of it, Eric. He came and stayed in London, and I think he lives in England now.

BH: That's right. Well, we're trying to track him down because of what he's written and what... the Yale Literary Review in 1968 did a beautiful production before the Yellow Submarine came out. I think some of the best quality illustrations I've ever seen in the movie were in that review, which I think was only a dollar at the time, which is now about a hundred dollars if you can find it John. Hey John, do you have one of those Yellow Submarine Corgi toys?

JC: Do you know, I haven't do you believe? I haven't.

BH: Would you like one?

JC: Yes, if you've got one.

BH: We'll get you one.

JC: I've got lots of memorabilia from those days, but I haven't got one of those.

BH: You know, they came out, I think it was like five or six dollars, now mint and in box they're over six hundred, if you can find them. I mean, you could put six hundred dollars down and still not be able to buy one cause you've got to locate one first. And that's tough, but we'll make sure we get you one John.

JC: That's really kind, that's great.

BH: Well, it's such an honor to talk to you because this is a major part as far as we're concerned the Yellow Submarine movie regardless of whether the writers were conscious of what they were doing totally or not, is not as important to us as the outcome. The production itself, when you watch it and I think I must have watched it almost as many times as you have. I kind of doubt that, though right John? You've probably seen it around seven hundred times, I've seen it around six hundred and fifty.

BH: Now, we understand there were scores of artists involved. Who was enlisted first on the project? How did the artists work on the movie both collectively and individually?

JC: Well, at the very beginning my partner, George Dunning, who directed the movie, he and I talked a lot about it. And whilst we were within the restrictions we were working for ABC and very low budgets, we were doing the series work, we felt quite good about the series. We didn't want to do an hour and a half version of the Beatles as caricatures because we didn't think that's what the public would want and they would want something much more exciting. So, from the very beginning, George and I said we've got to do something that's different and richer and more imaginative. And we got into this country every talent we knew in animation to do bits and pieces for us. We still couldn't find a look that we wanted.

We were reading an art magazine, a German one called "Twen," that was very famous in the sixties and we were admiring some of the artwork and discovered that it was done by a man called Heinz Edelmann. And so we phoned the editor of "Twen" and got the phone number of Heinz Edelmann and we were lucky to find that he spoke fluent English. And we said to Heinz, "would you catch the next plane out of Dusseldorf and come to London" and he did. And he listened to what we had to say. He went back to Germany and a week later a brown parcel arrived with four paintings inside. One of each Beatle, and we opened it, and it was that moment when you know that you've struck lucky and you've found exactly what you're looking for. Amazing!

BH: Well, the colors, the design of the characters, just gorgeous. Of course I'm going to say that a billion times over this interview. It's just very breath taking as far as I'm concerned. And of course many people here in America think Peter Max did the whole thing.

JC: Yes, I know.

BH: It must be a very unfortunate thing for Heinz because, boy, someone stealing your thunder like that! Well, correct me if I'm wrong John, but I understand that The Beatles owed United Artists one more film and the "Yellow Submarine" was created to fill that requirement. Could you please explain this situation in some detail?

JC: You see, that's an area I don't know so much about. That's where Al Brodax was wheeling and dealing. I think it's true that they were looking for another one to make it a trio. But, whether the Yellow Submarine was in fact created to do that, I don't honestly know. I don't, actually think so because we talked about it for two or three years before we actually started doing anything. And I would have thought that it would have been clear to us that that was the situation. But, I'm afraid I can't ... to be honest, I'm not sure about that.

BH: OK. Well, you know the reason why I brought that up is in reading some of the material on it later on, I learned that the movie "Let it Be" actually filled that final contract requirement and that the Yellow Submarine wasn't used for that so there was a little bit of confusion I wanted to try to straighten out. How did the Beatles feel about the Yellow Submarine movie?

JC: I think they were a bit suspicious at the beginning. They weren't mad about the TV series because you know the TV series didn't have their voices or similar voices.

The TV series was done for American audiences with a sort of mid-Atlantic accent and that kind of thing, which we weren't very happy about, but that's what ABC television wanted. And the Beatles, in fact, had in their agreement for them to be animated in that arrangement, but they wouldn't be shown in England. And I don't think they ever have been.

So, when the feature came up, in spite of reassurance from us, they were still suspicious, it was just going to be a full length version of the TV series. And we enthused them eventually, and they said they would do the voices. But they were at the absolute height of their fame and getting the four of them together into the recording studio became impossible. So, in the end, we had to find voices which were as close as we could get. And I think we did quite well in fact. Because most people in England thought it was the Beatles.

BH: Sure, you know , the reason again, why I brought that up was that the "Magical Mystery Tour" was not as successful as they had hoped it would have been, even though I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it tremendously.

JC: I did too. They threw a big fancy dress party here and we all went to it.

BH: Oh! That must have been a lot of fun! And I know that they were a bit nervous about public and critical reaction to any type of movie that they were doing. Now, I've been surprised, and when I say this I'm really surprised that there hasn't been more done to commemorate the Yellow Submarine theme since 1968 because you know of course when Sgt. Peppers twenty year anniversary came up in '87 it was just overwhelming over here. I would have hoped that the following year or so, something would have been done on the Yellow Submarine. Why do you think that is?

JC: Well, it's changed hands so many times. I don't even now know who the distributors are. And there was a tremendous complication with the music. Because some of it was Lennon and McCartney or it was Northern Songs, some of it was, oh that other publishing company. And they could never get together and sort that out.

And it wasn't until Michael Jackson bought up the entire music that it became a video. You know for years and years people were asking what happened to the video of the Yellow Submarine and it wasn't able to be released because they couldn't clear the music rights. And I think that's got a lot to do with it's gone from one place to another. I do know that here in England the BBC had it and it's been aired three times on the BBC and got amazing audiences every time. And our channel 4 have acquired the rights here and are about to put it out again.

We had a party to commemorate twenty five years of making it in the summer here.

BH: Well, why didn't you invite me John?

JC: Well, we would have! About two hundred people worked on the film and we managed to get about sixty or seventy from all over the place to the party.

BH: Well, there are many well-known artistic productions whose creators were not conscious of the numerous levels of meanings in their work. And if you have two hundred artists, I mean, it's tough enough working with two dozen artists, but for over two hundred, that's an experience.

JC: Well, we had, they booked a premier at the old London Pavilion Cinema in London, right in Piccadilly Circus. They booked it already a year ahead. When we started production, we knew we had to have that film ready for that premier on July 11, or 17, it was July anyway in '68. And when we started production in August, '67, we had eleven months to make the film from scratch.

Over the last six months, we ran out of, I don't know whether you know terminology for people working in animation. But tracers and painters, we couldn't find any more in London. So we used to, when they finished at 6:00 in the evening, they went home, and we had buses going to the art schools and we picked up students. And they came in and did a night shift at the desks of the daytime people, and we served meals on wheels at two in the morning. This film was made with an enormous amount of enthusiasm. Which is I think the way movies should be made anyway.

BH: Well, perhaps it's one of the reasons why it is a landmark.

JC: I think that has a lot to do with it funny enough. I mean, we knew we wanted to say something about the sixties and that whole scene. There's a certain consciousness of doing that.

BH: Indeed, and I wish we had that consciousness in the world today. It's a good thing you don't live in this country, we are just falling apart at the seams from the standpoint of losing our Constitutional rights. John, it just the reverse of everything we've worked for toward in the sixties and seventies. We're moving more and more towards, you're probably going to think I'm exaggerating, but we have been moving more and more towards a police state in this nation over the last several years. And if some of the big NAFTA and GATT go on, this country's about through. Well, we won't talk about this.

JC: Well, we've been suffering a bit the same way.

BH: Well, as I started to mention, there are numerous levels of meanings in this work. Was there any consciousness at the time. That there were so many levels of meanings in this particular production?

JC: Not perhaps in a serious way. But, yes we were, I think we were aware. We were also aware of that sixties period, which was, you know, there was a lot of really marvelous feeling about all you need is love and flower power and that, and it was very genuine at the time. And as you say, it's sad that it doesn't thrive. But there was a lot of enormous good feeling about the making of that film. I think people that worked on it have a great deal of nostalgia for that time.

If you listen to Paul McCartney now, you'd think he made it single handed. As I said earlier, they weren't that enthusiastic until it was finished. And then I think they were very pleased with it.

BH: Well, there's an interesting series of photos that I know you've seen, of the Beatles getting together in a little theater room to see it, and just before, there's a photo that I have of them just before and they're sitting on a couch and they look a little bit uncomfortable, like we don't know what's going to happen here but we've got cameras on us and I think we'd better make the best of it. But I understand afterwards, after they saw it, they became much more enthusiastic.

JC: Yes, the premier was a big occasion. The premier was a fancy dress one and we were all dressed up in Sgt. Pepper outfits. And yellow cars. I remember you couldn't get at Piccadilly Circus the police closed off; it was just one mass of people. And then we had to abandon our car on the pavement. We had a little, I don't know whether you know, Morgan, we had a bright yellow Morgan. The four of us got in there and we had to abandon that on the pavement. And walked or fought our way through the crowds. One forgets how incredible the following was. It was unbelievable. I think there must have been fifty or sixty thousand people just in that little Piccadilly Circus on that evening.

BH: That was close quarters there! I touched on this before about meanings, but the colors. The colors, I don't know, they are so vibrant! And what I couldn't understand is if you got so many artists working on it and they don't sit around and say, "I'm going to make sure my palette's this or that" How did you keep them..., their palette is so pure and clean in so many areas. Did you have any discussions or meetings with them saying something to that effect?

JC: Yes, we did. And controlling that number of people, making it in that much of a hurry was a hell of a job. But Heinz was a sort of an amazing figure in the middle of it all, and people had this tremendous respect for him. He had a team of designers behind him, adding and doing things. It was very much his baby, the whole look and feel of it. And there was just a lot of time and care take and checking. But actually there are some errors in there too.

BH: Oh really? Would you tell us one or two?

JC: Well, there are a few places where I would close my eyes when I see it.

BH: Just one little area that we might know was an error? Could you tell us one?

JC: Oh, that opening run-in, the very opening before you get to the credits. Pepperland being bombarded. If you look very carefully in there, there are a few trace and paint mistakes and things that don't quite match.

BH: Well, on my six hundred and fifty-first viewing of it, I'll check that
out. I'll see if I can find that, I haven't seen any yet.

John, have you seen the River Group's Beatle card yet?

JC: No.

BH: You haven't? Well, let's see if we can get you a box of River Group Beatle cards. They are beautiful, and the Yellow Submarine card in it is just gorgeous to behold, as you can imagine. Well, we'll make sure that we send you a Yellow Submarine Corgi toy. Now, John this is not going to be in mint condition, OK? It will only be in good condition. But it can't be in mint condition. And we'll get you some Beatle cards from the River Group.

And I hope some day that a book of some sort could be put out discussing this process and some of the possible meanings and if you guys aren't going to do it, I'm going to. Because I used to teach a course on the Yellow Submarine. And of course I didn't know anything about the technical data. I was just talking about the elevation of consciousness and the experience of the mythology which is unfolding consciously or not throughout that movie. And I think that is one of the reasons why it's a landmark. Not just in the technical aspect, but the meaning is simple and it's powerful. The "all you need is love" is some message and I wish that, obviously, this planet could pay attention to that.

JC: Well, we're still trying to make films that make you feel good about
that kind of thing.

BH: Obviously. When I saw "When the Wind Blows," I cried. That was some piece of work. This was about the nuclear - and it was so simply done. And I think it was so powerful because it was so simply done. That you understood, pretty much the kind of problem of - we think we can fix something. Well, my heavens, with the nuclear winter or what happens after a nuclear blast. It's not necessarily fixable! And we just can't close the doors and forget about it. It was a powerful message and I have not seen the animation of "The Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe." Is that the same as the...

JC: But it was done through the Melinda Studios, which is in Hollywood. And they sort of set the whole thing up. And then they had it made in Europe. And the three studios - the Melindas have a studio here in London, which his son ran. They did a third of it, they did the opening third. Bob Balser, I believe you've spoken to.

BH: Bob Balser? Yes.

JC: He's one of the animation directors from the Yellow Submarine. He has a studio in Barcelona, in Spain. He did the middle third. We did the last third. And it was quite difficult working out of three countries, keeping the character designs and colors and things working. But it came off pretty well.

BH: Well, I've just seen - there's a version of it out now that is with actors and actresses in it. And I don't believe it's related to it. And we've been wanting to do a series on the radio because we return to the Yellow Submarine theme every year or so. Because we want to make sure that obviously the people who are conscious of this and have a desire to know about it have a chance somewhere on radio to find this out.

John, I want to thank you very much for taking your time. We'll be sending these items out and if there's anything that you have a Xerox of anything dealing with the Yellow Submarine or something that you could just sign some... I'll tell you Bob Balser sent us Xerox copies of part of the script. He signed them and we were giving them out to, as a matter of fact we just finished giving one to the Loving Spoonful, remember them? They were good friends of mine back in the old days. When the Beatles first came to the United States, they met the guys.

But the funny story that I heard from Steve Boone was that when they both got together they both just sat and looked one another, afraid to say anything because they were afraid of making the wrong impression. Until finally it took a couple of hours and everyone was having a hell of a good time, you know how musicians are, when they get together with their guitars and that kind of thing. Well, John, thank you very much! And we'll send you a copy of this show and the other stuff of course.

JC: Thanks very much! And it's been great to talk to you.

BH: Same here John.

JC: Good luck.

BH: Bye bye.